18: No Room For You | Chap 6 of Not a Fan by Kyle Idleman

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In this episode John and Gregg chew on the presentation of the Holy Spirit and how the Bible is used to make certain points in Chapter Six of Not a Fan by Kyle Idleman.

Gregg notes that Idleman seems to want God to “move in and take over,” and so wonders what about us God actually does like (let alone love)? Gregg also questions Idleman’s use of John 16 because he finds nothing in that passage about “giving up myself” to have more of the Holy Spirit.

Instead, Gregg argues that being in relationship with God is not effacing your personality or losing your sense of self but becoming more, and most ourselves, by being in right relationship with God. The goal is not to empty ourselves, but rather yielding to collaboration with God.

John explains that Kyle’s view (that life only works with the Spirit) was a primary motivator for going to Swiss L’Abri. Gregg characterizes this as over-valuing the beneficial impact of the Holy Spirit while minimizing the effects of sin or being out of right relationship with God.

John asks what the Holy Spirit’s role is. Gregg answers that the Spirit fosters, cultivates, and renews our relationships with ourselves, with the world, with our fellows, and with God.  Thus, the Holy Spirit offers resilience to overcome things that would break those relationships.

17: Digging Deeper into Experience

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In this episode John and Gregg discuss Jerry Bridges’ view that “In order to trust God, we must always view our adverse circumstances through the eyes of faith, not sense” (Trusting God, p. 18).

John notes that he would have put the book down right there. Gregg comments that viewing negative circumstances solely through “the eyes of faith” contradicts the biblical importance of memory and experience, as God’s command to Israel to “remember” how God acted in past to deliver them (such that they would have faith that God will continue to deliver them in the present and future).

John raises the question of free will–the ability to choose his actions vs. being controlled by God.  Gregg notes that we are always trusting something, and that there has to be enough background or evidence to be able to trust God (as is what we remember).

Gregg notes that bible verses (e.g., Romans 8:28) can be used to manipulate outcomes: to blame certain people and exonerate others (most often oneself)!  This leads to a discussion of the problem of false religion: determining when religion is religiosity, which Gregg argues requires a multi-disciplinary approach (theology on its own is not enough).

John finishes by asking Gregg about his experience of being loved by God.  Gregg recounts his experiences as being a significant pointer to God where these experiences had the quality of being truly known, deeply loved, and being both affirmed and critiqued in his understandings.  So Gregg notes the importance of remembering his own experience of God’s love and goodness when adverse situations arise.

16: Experience, Motives, and Agenda | Listener Feedback

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In this special episode we interact with our first listener feedback: an email from Anna (who found our emphasis on authentic personal experience of God helpful) and Charlie’s comment about our motives from Episode Three.  John also underscores how much we value and welcome  listener feedback (negative and positive) while also welcoming questions on wider related subjects where we might be able to suggest other resources.

Expanding on Anna’s point about personal experience, Gregg comments on the need for Christians to be interested and engaged in all aspects of our world.  He also makes the distinction between agenda and motive by using Charlie’s comment as a jumping off point–arguing that while I’m necessarily always involved in my activities this does not mean that my self-involvement is always “sinful.”

For example, drawing personal agenda and personal experience together, Gregg urges that Christians can and should ‘judge’ God: we assess our experiences of God in drawing conclusions about how (and indeed whether) God loves me, because taking God’s love for me “on faith” is actually a way of detaching ourselves from the real world!

Gregg argues that Christians “witnessing” by giving tracts is a prime example of this detachment: there is no relationship or even personal interaction, there is little or no regard for the timing of this interaction, and typically any negative feedback is sloughed off as Jesus “being a stumbling block” or “the world hating me” on account of Jesus, instead of taking the criticism seriously.

15: Reviewing 2013 and Anticipating 2014

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In this episode we take a look back at 2013 and a look forward to 2014. We also talk about the different books on our desks, where they’d like the discussion to go in 2014, and what we’re hoping the podcast will be.

More than ever we’d like feedback from you, our listeners on what you’re getting out of these podcasts and if you are finding them helpful. We are particularly curious if you like our chapter-by-chapter approach through Not a Fan or it’s too hard to follow them if you haven’t read the book.  We’d also love input from our listeners on where they are coming from and suggestions as to where we should go next.

Here are some of the books we mentioned today. Note: just because we mention a book doesn’t mean we agree with everything in it or think you should too.  If you’ve read any of these we’d love to know your thoughts and ideas we should cover in future episodes from them.

Not a Fan, by Kyle Idleman.

Crazy Love, by Francis Chan.

The Ragamuffin Gospel, by Brennan Manning.

The Shack, by William P Young.

He Loves Me, by Wayne Jacobsen.

The Misunderstood God: The Lies Religion Tells About God, by Darin Hufford.

Experiencing God: Knowing and Doing the Will of God, by Henry T. Blackaby.

The Knowledge of the Holy, by A. W. Tozer.

The Road Less Traveled: A New Psychology of Love, Traditional Values and Spiritual Growth, by M. Scott Peck.

With or Without God: Why the way we live is more important than what we believe, by Gretta Vosper.

The Day Metallica Came to Church: Searching for the everywhere God in everything, by John Van Sloten.

Only a Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America’s Soul, by Kenneth R. Miller.

a Catechism, by C. H. Spurgeon.

14: Why Truth Claims and Truth Values Matter

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In this episode John asks Gregg to clarify the terms “truth claims” and “truth values,” mentioned in the notes for Episode 5: When Your One Star Experience is Five Stars for Someone Else. This was in response to Gregg wondering what truth value people are attributing to the Bible’s truth claims, in the context of many Amazon reviewers considering Not A Fan to be a transformative book.

John wonders how this works if, as some believe, the Christian Bible is an “instruction manual for life.” Gregg offers a different view, contending instead that the Bible conveys true things about God, ourselves, and our world.  However it’s chief goal is to put us in right relationship with God, through the person of Jesus.

John shares a story about a friend talking with Jehovah’s Witnesses who come to the door where the Bible is referred to as justification for their beliefs.  John’s friend invites the JW’s to come back with answers to his questions on the condition that they are backed by something other than the Bible (which he doesn’t hold to as an authoritative source).

Gregg resonates with this because, in addition to making global truth claims (that the God of the Bible is the only divine entity), the Bible also makes very personal truth claims (that God knows me and  loves me better than I know and love myself).  And while we understand personal truth claims by reading about them in the Bible, we believe them only through experiencing them.

Returning to Not a Fan by Kyle Idleman (in the context of many Amazon reviewers considering the book transformative), if a reader credits the book with improving their life, Gregg wants to know more specifics.  For instance, it’s important to understand the person’s starting point and what’s actually changed or what they’ve “given up” in their life (and what impact or value the person placed on this).  Only then could one assess why that person would accept Not a Fan‘s presentation of certain biblical truth claims (with which we broadly disagree) and judge those claims as having real truth value.

In closing, Gregg notes the possibility that what the reader judges to be a real, lasting improvement based on “following Jesus” (as advocated in Not a Fan) might well be a partial (relative to a poor starting place) or short term improvement (because the full implications take time to unfold).  And importantly, this is where an inter-disciplinary approach benefits Christian understanding and practice: findings in psychology, sociology, philosophy, and other disciplines are essential to promoting better theological and exegetical understandings.